Falklands : Councillors Grilled over NOK Visit
Submitted by Falkland Islands News Network (Juanita Brock) 25.06.2009 (Article Archived on 09.07.2009)
It seems that there was an implied threat concerning withdrawing the weekly LAN flight if Argentine Next of Kin weren't allowed to make their pilgrimage by air.
COUNCILLORS GRILLED OVER NOK VISIT
Commentary and Transcript by J. Brock (FINN)
At Tuesday’s public meeting Councillors were grilled about implications arising from the visit by air of Argentine Next of Kin in October 2009. It appears as if, in the transcript below, the Argentine Government threatened (either veiled or open) to pull the Weekly LAN Flight if the Next of Kin couldn’t visit by air instead of by sea. A visit by sea meant that larger numbers of Argentine Next of Kin could make a visit to the Falklands. That, it seems, is not possible.
MR: I’ve got a question from Andrew Alazia (AA) and I think it would be good to get it out during this meeting rather than not. So, the way we have agreed to do this – Andrew would prefer that we deal with the questions he sent us in the form of an e-mail so I am going to read out the comments and Andrea is going to respond to them initially in order that we can move through this fairly quickly. We haven’t got a great deal of time. So Andrew’s Question is to do with the Next of Kin visit in early October and some of the issues around that. And he makes the observation that the only common theme with the current schedule seems to be that the flight would take place on a Saturday. Everything else is different IE different aircraft, different arrival and departure times, different length of time on the ground, different route.
“That sounds pretty much like a charter to me. Would Councillors agree that they have had the wool pulled over their eyes in that the scheduled LAN flight is indeed not a scheduled flight at all?”
Do you want to go with that one? I will read through the whole lot, then so it is all out in the open.
“The Governor stated that relations were being exacerbated to the point where possibly action might have been taken against our interests -relations with whom and what actions? Is it true that the real reason that this was agreed to was the fact that Councillors were told that if they did not agree to it the weekly scheduled LAN flight would be stopped completely? In the Penguin News it stated that in the event of an overnight stop the Military would probably step in and help. What plans have been made in case the Military won’t step in and help? What is the situation regarding the third flight?”
MR: So, those are really the questions.
AC: I will pick them up one by one. If you’ve got any supplementary (questions), Andrew, just fire them in.
The flight – not really a scheduled flight but a charter – just to address that – I don’t actually agree or take your points about the detailed alterations. It is still on a Saturday – that’s true. And it does form part of the two stops per month, which is within the agreement – the 1999 Agreement – in Rio Gallegos. It is a LAN scheduled flight. That hasn’t changed. It starts and it stops in Chile, not Argentina. As I said, there are some amendments to the detail and that is basically because it is physically impossible for this to happen if you need to – if you were to have the normal turn-around, which is – what – an hour – I don’t know – two hours maybe – the plane’s on the ground when it does its normal weekend flight – in order to get the people out to the cemetery and back. And the alternative is – if it’s an air route – that they would need to stay for a week. So this is the compromise, which is – yeh – take your point – it’s a slight change but it is a detail rather than the under-laying principle – at least to my mind. Oh – and the other really key thing about saying it’s really just a charter in disguise is that – in actual fact – the commercial use of that plane will be at its normal capacity. So the airframe might change and be bigger but the number of seats that are available to normal travellers using the LAN flight will be there. They will not be impinged on at all.
So it really is that the Argentine Government – Next of Kin – and the Commission – they will be paying for that larger plane in order to carry it out. But if you want to fly on that day there is no problem. The timings will be slightly different – just to accommodate them.
Stephen Luxton (SL) Lan Chile have been telling us for about five years that they can’t possibly have a larger airframe to accommodate the summer demand of the Saturday flight so why do you think the sudden change of heart?
JB: The Argentines are paying for it.
AC: They are paying. We are not offering to pay for the difference of all those seats. I guess that’s the ultimate difference. The Argentine Government is stumping up the cash to do it and giving it to the Families Commission. That’s why it’s happening. It was there responsibility to sort it. If they wanted to do it on that scheduled LAN flight it was up to them to sort it.
AA: I was just wondering how the numbers stacked up. I am not too sure how many are hoping to come over but I understand it’s 700 – is it?
AC: Well, that was their original figures but at the moment they have said that they can get the number that they need on two flights. There was a mention of a possible third but that’s just a possibility and it’s not been decided, so if the airframe carries – and I don’t know anything about airframes – but it will carry x-number – and we will have the seats – they only get the balance on two flights so I don’t know what their total will be but between 300 and 400?
AA: It is thought that those plans are fully booked anyway. That doesn’t leave anywhere near 700 seats.
AC: No. It won’t. They’ve had to give.
MR: Will they?
AC: No-no-no they have – just two flights – 3rd and 10th. There was a mention of a possible 3rd but there doesn’t seem to be anything happening with it. But again it would fit into the pattern that is there.
Gerald Cheek (GC): You don’t know how many civilians are booked on those flights.
AC: No but the entitlements – the airframe that we’ve got now – is anybody in the room now? I don’t know –
MF: 150
AC: it’s 150 – so 150 of those seats on whatever the airframe is - will be available to all normal travellers – our normal travellers or the people coming in or whatever. Up and above that is for the Next of Kin. And I don’t know how it will work if people don’t pick up the difference.
AA: This just does not add up. How can you possibly add these things up? They just don’t add up.
AC: No they don’t. They’ve given. They’ve given – that’s the point. That’s what’s agreed – nothing more is agreed. If they can’t fit 700 people – tough luck!
JB: Well, 700 was a figure that was bandied around months ago.
AC: That was a figure that was bandied a long time ago.
MR: Years ago.
JB: Nobody actually knows how many will put their passports in and fly – nobody knows.
AA: So you’ve agreed to something that nobody knows?
JB: No – we’ve agreed to two flights – excuse me – no – we’ve agreed to those two flights.
AA: And what logistics are involved?
JB: In what way?
AA Well, I mean, if you have, say 200 people turn up on this flight –
JB: Right –
AA: They’ve got a certain amount of time to get into the Islands, they have a certain amount of time to get to Goose Green, they have a certain amount of time to have their service or whatever, a certain amount of time to get back –
JB: You’re right. There was a lot of work – well I will answer you if you like – there was a lot of work done on the possibility and preferred route, which was going to be by sea going into Mare harbour. So all of the logistics which we are talking about – the coaches the mini tent village that would be required there for toilets, first aid – all of that will happen with the aid of the Military.
AA: A tent village – where would it be?
JB: Well, you’ve got old people, you’ve got quite a few old people. They will require facilities such as portable toilets.
AA: At |mare harbour?
JB: No. At Darwin.
MR: And Shelter
JB: And shelter.
AA: So what time will the aircraft have to arrive here and what time..
AC: OK. We don’t have any of the specific detail right now
AA: You state that you are just waiting on the details. Why not? What’s wrong with you?
AC: No. We’ve agreed to the capacity to the fact that for the people to come in to have their service and go on the days that the Rio Gallegos flight or in the framework that we have, which is two stops in Rio Gallegos per month. OK?
AA: Do you consider it to be a realistic time-scale to be on the ground here?
AC: As long as it takes to have their service and go.
AA: So, in that case, if you track back, what time would that aircraft have to leave Santiago?
AC: It won’t be coming from Sant.. yeh, well, I don’t know how – that part of the de – we- what we’ve agreed to physically as to how long they can come here for…
AA: How long have you thought about it?
AC: There are people working on it right now.
GM: You shouldn’t be working on what hasn’t been agreed.
JB: No. What’s been agreed is that there will be two aircraft, one arriving on Thursday the 2nd and there will be larger airframes than are normally coming in.
AA: As part of the scheduled flight, John?
JB: Yeh. In our opinion – all eight Councillors in their opinion – have agreed that as far as we are concerned it’s a scheduled flight. The numbers of passengers who would normally travel on the every Saturday LAN – 150 apparently – those seats are guaranteed for use of people other than the next of kin. The amount of time required in the Islands by those next of kin is yet to be decided. It may be six hours – it may be eight hours.
AA: People are scared about the flight connections.
AC: Sorry
AA: People on a scheduled flight can make connections? What time does it get into Santiago at the moment? Nine – ten O’clock at night? So if it is going to leave so many hours later are they going to make their connections or what have you?
AC: OK. Let’s come back to the basics of OK on the discussion about this happening. You know because you are asking for detail that they are working out. If they can’t work it out maybe their plans will change. We know what we’ve agreed to – nothing more. We have agreed to two…
AA: I don’t think you do know what you’ve agreed to.
AC: OK. Fine.
William Bowles (WB): What about the numbers? Wouldn’t it be wise to find out about the numbers before you make plans?
AC: It’s not working that way around, Willie, it’s not working that way around. We told them that we want the seats that we normally have available – right? They only have the difference. It’s up to them –
WB: But how many?
AC: They know that. Absolutely they know that. We said this is our regularly scheduled flight, if you pay for the difference, you pay for the bigger airframe you can have the difference in seats. It’s not going to be 700. It’s not going to be 700. It’s going to be something much less.
Tim Miller (TM): You will probably actually have 100 each Saturday because if you are saying that they are not going to touch the normal 150 seats – the equivalent of an Airbus 318 or 320 or whatever, that means that you will have a wide-bodied jet coming in that will have a capacity of about 250 so there is going to be a maximum only of about 100 Next of Kin coming.
AC: That was the terms that we agreed.
AA: The airframe has been agreed – has it not?
AC: I don’t know what airframe
MR: I think they have talked about a 767 – yes.
AA: Is it going to be a LAN Chile Aircraft?
AC: Yes.
AA: Not a LAN Argentina?
AC: No. It’s just LAN. OK, shall we get on to the other parts of your question? The relations – you talk about what relations were being exacerbated. That was the relations between the UK Government and the Argentine Government. What action? The action was not explicit but implied. If this visit does not go ahead that LAN might be cut. OK? So that’s what we were juggling. And, it could happen immediately. Easily done. It’s the only thing left in the 1999 agreement that they haven’t walked away from. They have walked away from everything else.
Hillary Pauloni (HP): What if you are ill? How will you get to Chile for treatment?
AC: I guess it depends how ill you are when you are trying to get to Santiago.
Phil Middleton (PM): Could you just explain that last point? You said that the employed threat or whatever is that that Lan Chile flight would be cut.
AC: By way of denying access across Argentine airspace. I assume that
PM: Does Argentina have that amount of clout with the Chilean Government?
AC: Well, it just stops access. It’s not about whether the plane takes off – it’s about whether the plane can get anywhere.
PM: Does the Argentine Government have that much clout with the international –
AC: It’s their airspace.
MR: You are going through Argentine –
AC: It’s their airspace
PM: I know all that but the point is – I am picking up on this scheduled flight – as I understand it, that scheduled flight is an internationally agreed scheduled flight and is allowed through Argentine airspace on internationally agreed agreement.
AC: On the 1999 Agreement. That’s right
PM: So are we now saying that the implied threat is that the Argentine Government can just stop the 1999 Agreement?
AC: Of course. They’ve walked away from everything else. You don’t see them working with us on fish
PM: But what about the International community?
AC: They are busy thinking about Iran, they’re busy thinking about bigger things.
PM: This needs to get out in the open. If the implied threat is that the Argentine Government can tomorrow stop the LAN Chile flight coming through then what’s the back-up we’ve got from the rest of the international scenario that they are going to do something about it?
JB: Right – ok – ok – as the can of worms has been lifted up here – the bottom line of all of this is, Is it defendable – you are talking about the international community – sometimes we hear this here – and actually I would suggest that 99% of the population of the globe aren’t particularly interested in our problems. They’ve got other problems of their own. Is it defendable to British Parliamentarians to deny the Argentine Next of Kin a visit here -old ladies, sons and daughters, of those who died? Is it defendable because no matter what we think, that’s how it was looking. So any sitting Council has to have the backing of the British Parliament. And I’m afraid it’s all black and white, if you like. I couldn’t see how we could defend that. You are stopping old ladies going to the Islands to visit the grave? Why? How are you going to defend that?
PM: I think you are going off the point.
JB: Not actually. No I’m not, Phil
PM: Hang on. I can understand that ok – that’s fine. Put that to one side. The statement that was made is that the implied threat that if this was not allowed to happen was that the Argentine Government could stop flights tomorrow. Now, that’s a completely different thing than letting little old ladies coming to the Islands. it might be linked but the threat of suddenly stopping the international flight coming in on a scheduled basis is a huge difference from British Parliament backing whether we have Argentine Next of Kin.
MR: But it is the reality, Phil, it is the reality that was the implied threat. What we think about it is.
PM: Hang on – I am not worried about what we think.
AC: You are talking about the international community – what will happen.
PM: It is the international community we are talking about and I think it is a bigger thing than just saying 99% of the world doesn’t care what goes on here. There are some governments that care what goes on here because we are the international gateway into Antarctica.
AC: it’s all PR at the end of the day, right? And it depends on why they would walk away from it. If they stopped that flight through their air space because of something the international community thought was absolutely ridiculous and should never happen then I imagine we would get a reasonable amount of support. If it was because we didn’t let mothers and sons and daughters of war dead to visit, I think it’s a bit different.
AA: You have never said we wouldn’t allow them to visit.
AC: You are absolutely right. We have never said that. Unfortunately some people started politics with the Next of Kin and that somebody –Do you think it’s the right thing to do?
AA: We’d lose.
JB: We would lose.
AC: We’d lose. It doesn’t matter what, because who is going to back us? And that’s fine but you know we have to try and juggle what’s best for the community and you know - I appreciate that not everybody’s happy with the outcome but we hope and we believe that the Argentines have had to give a lot more than we have in actual fact. You might not agree with that but we do.
AA: So to turn this on its head, there’s a – as it says at the bottom of my letter there, If we requested a scheduled flight with a larger aircraft for a cruise ship passenger exchange –
AC: The answer is No. if we paid for it, it might not be. But if it was a charter the answer would be no because they banned charters, didn’t they?
IH: I think that’s a very good point. It is something that’s negotiable in this whole situation and I think it’s something that shouldn’t be lost. I think it’s an important point, that one.
AC: But we do have to be careful. We don’t want to be seen as a country – I wouldn’t have thought - that tries to politicise the war dead – access to the war graves. If Argentina wants
Stella Prindle-Middleton (SPM): What would we lose if we insisted on the ship only?
JB: We would lose the PR. There’s no doubt about it. And if you think – we would have lost the PR messing about with an emotional issue such as the widows and kids.
Paul Robertson (PR): Have you thoroughly discussed all of this.
AC: You won’t believe us probably but we’ve had really, really tough discussions on all of this and we didn’t start off in this position. But we believe that this is a not bad outcome for us as a country overall and I can understand if you are not happy with it but considering where we might have ended up this isn’t that bad actually. And just a final point because you mentioned it about all the timings and everything, and about contingency – a lot of planning is going on right now but the MOD will, if required, be providing accommodation at MPA until those people can get off the Islands.
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